Alexandre: But the important thing is that the law has passed. If you work for a company that allows you to work remotely from another country and you want to move to Spain, it may be a good opportunity for you. If you work as a freelance from home and you want to move to Spain. Why not?
Salman: Welcome to the investment immigration podcast by Uglobal.com With weekly in-depth interviews with the world's leading investment immigration professionals. Welcome to the show, everybody. And today we are going to focus on Spain for this. We have a very special guest today. And the reason we are choosing Spain in this episode is because something new has been happening there. There is talk about a new digital nomad visa. There's talk about a visa which focuses on entrepreneurs. There's a new act that has been approved by the Parliament. So a lot of things to unpack there. And we have from Spain, from Madrid to talk to us about this. My guest today is Alexandre Rangel. He's the director and founder of the Grupo SIEspaña. And he's going to tell us about everything that's happening there. So welcome to the show, Alex.
Alexandre: Well, thank you so much for the invitation. It's my pleasure to be here with you.
Salman: Fantastic. So, Alex, let's get straight into the matter and tell us what is happening in Spain. What is this exciting news about the start up act? What is this thing about the new visa for entrepreneurs and for digital nomads? Please tell our listeners about this.
Alexandre: I mean, from the last years, I would say for the last almost eight years, Spanish has been opening for new people to come, for new business, people, for new entrepreneurs. The first thing that we saw years ago was the in 2013 with the love for entrepreneurship that allow people to invest in Spain to buy a property what is called the golden visa. We also saw with the highly qualified people and now last year, in December last year, 2022, we saw the path of the new law of the Nomad visa, the digital Nomad, a startup act. Basically, Spanish didn't want to be behind all other countries since the COVID or even a little bit before the COVID. But after the COVID people start moving from one country to another, people start working remotely. So many people in the United States, in Latin American country that for political or social reasons, they didn't want to remain their country or some people live in a country with living expenses is very high. They start thinking after the Cold War, if I am working remotely from home, why stay in my country? Why don't move to another country? My dream has always been living in Europe. Why not leave now? In Italy and Portugal and Spain? So many countries start implementing the nomad visa and of course they didn't want to be kept behind. It's a great opportunity for especially for two types of people. One is for people who work for a company that allows the employee to work remotely. That's very important because the company has to authorize that this employee move to another company. Of course, we have to show that the person is qualified for the job, the salary. There are many requirements, and you know that when in general, not when a law passed. One thing is what we see in the written law, and another thing is what we see in the practice.
Salman: Exactly. And I want to stop you there to first clarify, has the law been passed already or is it still in the works?
Alexandre: No, the law has been passed and now people can apply for the nominees. But I doubt that there is one person who really got the nomad visa yet. So it's a process we need to see what exactly is what the administration is going to require.
Salman: Right. So and we don't know that right now. At the moment you're saying in writing.
Alexandre: We know, for example, that if you work for a company, you need to show that a company have been established for more than one year, that you have to have an employer relationship for more than three months. We know that you need to show that you are qualified for the job. That's for the people who work for a company that has been employee for that company. But I think most of the people will benefit from this law will be the people who work like a freelance. You need to be employed for a company and have the authorization of that company to move to Spain. You can be a freelance, you can work from home, but then you have to show that you have contracts. They say several contracts with companies that you provide services online remotely. And now is when we need to see how the administration is going to take this into consideration. What you call several company is two companies enough or you want to see six companies that you work for, six company. How much money does this company need to pay me? Is 500 or €600 a month fine, Or you want to see €1,000 from each company every month?
Salman: That's very important point. Yeah.
Alexandre: Yeah, we don't know that yet. The salary, of course, you can do the minimum work salary here in Spain. That is €8,000 a month. They probably want to see 2000. Is 2000 enough or you want to see 6000? If I work for a US company, remotely is 1000 a month. You know, probably. They say if a company in the United States, you need to make 3000 or more 4000. So we need to see. But the important thing is that the law has passed. If you work for a company that allows you to work remotely from another country and you want to move to Spain, it may be a good opportunity for you if you work as a freelance from home and you want to move to Spain, why not?
Salman: And that's good news for a lot of freelancers around the world. And like you rightly pointed out earlier, freelancers don't necessarily work for, say, ten companies. At the same time. Sometimes they have two gigs, which are very good gigs from which they're getting money. And but we need to know exactly what, like you mentioned, the criteria is would that be enough to qualify and how much is the minimum income threshold so the law doesn't talk about at the moment, the minimum income threshold.
Alexandre: The low mentioned something about slightly more can be between 1000, €3,000 a month can be twice 2000 if they see someone who May 2000. Will they allow them with two contract and 2000? We will see. Something that is important. Very important is that people need really to analyse what they want to do because remember that there will be a flat rate tax, flat rate for people who work in Spain of 25%. So before jumping and moving to Spain and applying for this visa, people really need to see what they want to do in the long and short term because they will be a tax imposition for the income you make while you are in Spain.
Salman: Right.
Alexandre: So that's what happened. People immigrate from one country to another because now there is some opportunity to expand. Let's work toward Spain and now there is an opportunity in Portugal. Let's move to Portugal. And they really didn't take into consideration the long and short term goals.
Salman: Now, that's an important point. And we're going to talk about the tax, how the tax situation would work. But before we move on to that, I would also like to understand from you is this whole digital nomad visa thing has been a trend in Europe and many EU countries for some time, actually, especially the post pandemic. And during the pandemic, countries came up with this idea that digital nomad is the way forward. There are examples in Malta and other countries, so why did it take Spain so long to realize that this is the route to take to incentivize? I feel like Spain has waited a bit too long because the digital nomad community would be very happy to see the option in Spain. But why it takes so much time?
Alexandre: That's a good question. I believe that hearing is paying for this type of time, more time than other country, probably for them, it wasn't a priority at the moment. At that time, he felt that there are other laws very important here in Spain. Like they know lucrative business for me is the best way to move to Spain. They call them visa and people doesn't know that this law are here in Spain right now.
Salman: Right. And in general, the buzz in the whole the Golden Visa programs, especially from the EU countries, it's not really much in that news, as I say. I would say the other countries the way they are pushing it. So I wanted to also ask you, like maybe there's a problem in creating awareness about the programs from the government side. Maybe they need to do more on this end to make people familiar about what are the options. What do you think?
Alexandre: Yes, that's correct. The government hasn't been very proactive at all in promoting the different ways to immigrate to Spain. That has been in our part, the attorneys on the agencies to promote that. Thanks God we exist because otherwise nobody would know if, for example, the Golden Visa, remember that one of the main benefit to move to Spain, besides the quality of life, the medical system is for Latin American people. Because Latin American people, those who were born in either American country after two years of living in Spain, has a residence, they can apply for a Spanish passport that will open the doors to the rest of the European Union countries.
Salman: After how many years? You said.
Alexandre: Two years. Wow. That's something that not many people know. So you are from Colombia, you Mexico or from Venezuela? You come to Spain as a Nomad Digital as a golden visa. has a non lucrative because you have a relative you can obtain. You can apply for your Spanish citizenship after two years of living in Spain. So that's something really important, especially for Latin American to consider. The rest of the people is they don't have a relative in Spain. They will have to wait ten years. American citizens come to Spain. They have to wait ten years to become a citizen to apply in Portugal, for example. We are not I know we are not talking here, but in Portugal, it's five years for everybody.
Salman: That's true. And I was actually coming towards Portugal because Spain is I mean, like. Mentioned, it seems to be a better European destination for investors and entrepreneurs from Latin America, especially who are looking for long term residencies. And they're looking for that quickly. And many I know about Portugal, but for Spain now you're mentioning it. A lot of people don't talk about that much.
Alexandre: You see what's happening right now in Portugal. This is amazing. Everybody talks about Portugal. You see in all news about Portugal and you don't see the same thing. That was your initial question about Spain. People is starting to realize, especially Latin Americans, of the benefit. That's why I mentioned before that when you move to one country, you need to see what are your goals and then you have to choose which country is better for you.
Salman: Right? That's perfectly a valid point. And before we move on to the other investment immigration options that we have in Spain, I would like you to talk about the tax that digital nomad would have to pay on their global income. What do we know about that exactly?
Alexandre: It will be a flat rate of 24%. And then they are not going to be subject to the wealth tax, the wealth tax, where you have to declare all your wealth around the world. In this case for Nomad visa, they will have to pay just a flat 24%. Again, we will see how this developed because that will be the tax agency to determine what enters into the 25% and whatnot. And you know, the in each country, the tax agency are something!
Salman: That's true.
Alexandre: So that's why it's really important that people who qualify or they are thinking to move to Spain to apply for the Nomad visa, take into consideration the tax implications as well.
Salman: Fair point. Okay. Now let's move on to Spain's residency by investment program. And specifically, I'm interested to know from you as how can investors apply for it, gain long term permanent residencies in Spain? If you could shed some light on that more.
Alexandre: Yes. You know, there are two main types of business for what I call medium and high net worth individuals. One of them is what we all know is the golden visa. And there are different ways to obtain for the investor. visa. one is buying a property in Spain, anywhere in Spain for €500,000 or more. It can be those 500,000 in one property, two property, three properties in everywhere in Spain. You can use it for your personal residence. You can use it for renting or Airbnb, whatever you want. With that you can obtain a residency in Spain valid for two years and then it will be renewed for five years. The good thing is that with that residence, you are not required to live in Spain. Most of my clients who apply for this residence are people that they don't want to leave now in Spain. They want to have it a plan B in the future, have a house in Spain where they can go on vacations. And also because they have children and the children want to come to study to Spain. So I have a family of six father, the mother, father and mother. They stay in Mexico and the four children are going to study have a residency in Spain. So for half a million, you move your entire family to Spain and that's good. And father and mother are not required to live in Spain.
Salman: But aren't you, like, required to live for six months or something per year? Is there a requirement?
Alexandre: No, not for the investor base. That is our requirement for the non lucrative business that we will talk about. So basically. For who is the golden visa? Mainly for people who doesn't want. Or who doesn't require to live all the time in Spain. They want to come and go without the oppression. Now, the other excellent way is they know lucrative business. It was a visa that wasn't known for many years until ten years ago that basically our company start promoting in Latin America at that time when I have an interview. People don't believe that you can go to Spain because they know lucrative visa don't require to invest €1 in Spain. So when I was interviewed ten years ago and I was telling people in Latin America that you can come to Spain, obtain a residency in two years, apply for the citizenship without investing one single euro in Spain, they didn't believe me because they thought it was a joke. And right now, thousands and thousands of people have obtained the passport through that way.
Salman: Right. And you're telling me and it sounds too good to be true, actually. So I mean, what is the incentive there for the Spanish government? How does that work for them?
Alexandre: I mean, the reality is that that visa was created for people who was going to retire in Spain. People who can show they have enough money and they want to return. But the reality is that the law doesn't say that you need to use this visa to retire. So one who can show they have enough funds in their own country because the money doesn't even have the bank accounts that you need to show to prove that you are not going to work in Spain, doesn't even have to be in a local bank, can be in your own country. And there are people who they have made their own money in their own country, and they are 35 years old and they don't want to work anymore. Okay. And they just want to take a one or two year sabbatical and they are not going to do any labor or any employment here in Spain. They can apply for these type of visas. Basically what you have to show. You don't have to show actually that much money. You have to show 30,000 around €30,000 or the equivalent in local currency for the principal and around 8000 for each family member, a spouse and children under 18. Okay. With that visa, you can come to Spain, you can live in Spain, and you are from Latin American country. In two years, you apply for you citizenship.
Salman: Okay. Now let's talk about also say suppose I'm right now in New York. I'm in Berlin right now, but suppose I'm in New York or somewhere in the US. I'm an American investor. I'm listening to you on the show and I want to understand the process that it would entail to get a Spanish residency. Now, what would you tell somebody who is in the US right now what they would have to do, apart from the half a million dollars of money that you mentioned?
Alexandre: I have been in the immigration field this year for 24 years. The first thing that everybody who wants to move, who wants to, who are thinking to change their life and have the experience to live in another country, the first thing is to know exactly what are the legal requirements, What are the different legal requirements to see if I qualify or not. So everybody who is thinking to move to Spain, the first thing I will recommend is to make a consultation with a professional who can give who can provide the different range of ways to move to Spain. They nomad visa, the non lucrative resident they golden visa and see what is the best because sometimes people just focus. There are many people who call me and say, I spoke with a lawyer or with a professional and they offer me to buy a property in Spain. No, you don't need to buy a property in Spain. If you can show that you have money to live in Spain without having to work. So every case is different. Everybody, every single person has a different objective, different goals in life. So we need to analyze each person deeply and see what they really looking for. And see is the options that the Spanish offer somehow match what this person is looking for.
Salman: I mean, that's true. But I'm asking also that, for example, is there information available to, say, Americans in English about Spain's residency program on some government website where they can go and.
Alexandre: Every Spanish consular in the world in their website, you can see all the requirements for all the different types of visas. But again, you can see on a website their requirements. But it doesn't mean that that's the right way to move to Spain for you, because, for example, and this is just an example, an important one is you go to any website, they will tell you that you can apply for the non lucrative visa. You have 30,000. But what the website doesn't know is that that visa is granted for one year and once you are in Spain you need to renew it for two years and at the time you renew, you need to show twice that money. So if you are listening to this and you have $40,000 in your bank account and you want to move to Spain, you say, I don't want to work in Spain, I just want to take one year off and I have 40,000 more than the website is asking me to prove. Well, let me tell you, you don't qualify. Even though you have 40,000. You qualify, you qualify, but you are not going to be able to renew that visa in Spain. Why? Because when you go to Spain, you will have living expenses. You will have to pay rent, you will have to pay everything. And then at the end of the year, you have to show twice that money. How are you going to do? That's why it's so important that you find out really was the present and the future in your country. Talking about the legal aspect.
Salman: Fair points there. And you also mentioned there about the options that are available. And this is a common confusion that a lot of people have. And making that decision is about where can you invest? Is it just real estate? Is it investment funds, is it bank deposits or share portfolios? So can you talk about these other options which are there apart from the real estate?
Alexandre: Yeah, besides the real estate, you can make a deposit in a bank account in Spain for €1 million on your own name. Some people I have clients that they say, Listen, Alex, I don't want to invest half a million because everything that I have seen is very small. I don't like the neighborhood. And if I want to find. Something that I really like is about a million. a million and a half they prefer to deposit $1 million in a bank account under his own name. Because this is important. Some countries you need to invest in a company. You need to invest in something that you don't have control. In Spain, you will have control of your investment at all the time. Because you invest in a property. The property will be under your name and you can sell it whenever you want. You sell it, you may lose your asset, but the property is used is you deposit €1,000,000 in the bank there. It will be under your name. Nobody else, no agency, no third party involved in this process.
Salman: Right. And those are important points, of course. Now, let me ask you about your clients, because you've been mentioning them. So which investment route is most popular with your clients? Is it the real estate? Is it the other options you talked about?
Alexandre: You know, 70% of my clients are non lucrative and the other 30% are investment. I will say 20% are real estate and the other 10% are 1 million deposit. Why that difference? Because most of my clients. Are from Latin America and they do want to move and live in Spain for more than six months. Right now, we are seeing an enormous increase of clients from the United States who are a Latin roots but have been living in the United States for 20, 30 years. They are retired right now and they are coming to Spain through the not lucrative visa.
Salman: I see and from Latin America is a particular few countries that are applying. Among your clients?
Alexandre: Yes. Mexico, Colombia, and, of course, Venezuela.
Salman: I see. Okay. That's interesting. And what about I mean, I'm talking now not just about your clients, but in general about the trends that you may have observed in Spain's residency by investment program over the years. So are you seeing bigger interest from Americans?
Alexandre: Yes, absolutely. Before the investment program was just focused on Chinese, Asians, Russians, and right now we are seeing an enormous increase from Latin American people investing here in Spain, mainly because they want for the economic and social situation in many Latin American country. They want to have a plan B, they feel secure having a residence in another country. And here in Spain, they just buy a property for half a million. In 20 days they can have their residency approval. The process is very short, and that's something that is also attracting on other countries. You invest and you have to wait months now, even in some countries, even years. But here in Spain, in three weeks you buy a property and in three weeks you can have your resident approved.
Salman: Right. We are coming close to the end of our show. But before I let you go, I have to ask you some about what's been happening in the EU, especially with regards to the citizenship by investment programs and the residency by investment programs. Now, I've seen this in the news, especially that Spain's representatives, the parliamentarians and the European Parliament have been quite vocal about their opposition to the CBI programs offered by countries such as Malta, Cyprus and Bulgaria. And one has to now think about the future of CBI and RBI programs, especially in the EU countries. What do you think? What do you think is the future of CBI RBI programs.
Alexandre: At least here in Spain? I don't see that program being eliminated. Why? Because that program has been extremely amount of money to Spain and has reduced the real estate market, not only in the coast, in the Golden Coast like Marbella or Malaga, but also here in Madrid, in Barcelona. So the government is saying that wealthy people is coming, they are buying property. Wealthy people go to eat in a nice restaurant. They find they have promoted directly or indirectly, the economy in Spain. So I don't think that that will be something that they will take away, especially when there are other laws that that has been implemented in Spain the last two years that help to legalize. Let's say I don't want to use the word, but the less unfortunate people with less money, let's say that way with people that they don't have enough money. They have been also benefit from new laws here in Spain. So. Is those people are being benefit. I don't think that the older people who is putting more money into the economy will be prejudiced.
Salman: No, that's true. But from what I've read and especially what's been happening in the European Parliament, especially this debate about the CBI and RBI programs, they tend to use a terminology of security. They'd say that these programs are bad for the security of the EU and that the citizenship is not for sale and things like that. They make it sound like the entire program is just for criminals.
Alexandre: Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's be clear. There are many maybe possible that some of these programs and some people has used this program to do money laundering. That's not a secret. And that's the responsibility of each country to make sure that doesn't happen. And to me, the backgrounds and all the background checks necessary, they have.
Salman: Right. Due diligence is every country's duty. And of course, for other states, I mean, finally, I mean, I would like to know I mean, I'm going to end the episode soon. So what more are we to expect from Spain's investment immigration program, you think? Is it digital nomad? The only big trick that's come out of the hat, or do you think some more incentives will be offered this year in 2023?
Alexandre: I don't know if this year, but I do hope that they make more flexible how people can apply for the citizenship. Okay, That's one thing I'm hoping because if you investing in Spain, for example, and you are from Latin America, you need to show that you live in Spain or at least that you don't have you have hasn't been out of Spain for more than 90 days in a row. So I do hope if they want to really attract people in Spain, they need to do something like Portugal, like you can buy a property here, you don't need to live here. And in two years you can apply for the citizenship instead of requiring people to actually live in the country or not be out of the country for more than 90 days. If they do that, that will be something really good. Hopefully they do.
Salman: Okay. We'll see what happens. 2023 year is a year of many hopes and promises. So we'll see what happens. Thank you so much for your time, Alex. I really appreciate you to be on the show.
Alexandre: Thank you for the opportunity. It's my pleasure.
Salman: And I'll give a last shout out to our listeners of the show. Please stay tuned. We'll have more guests from all around the world. We'll talk about more programs. Take care. You've been listening to the Investment Immigration podcast by Uglobal.com. Join us again soon for more in-depth conversations exploring investment, immigration opportunities from around the world.

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